In this episode of the Solo Female Travelers Podcast, Mar is joined by Cepee, founder of She Hit Refresh and author of An American’s Ultimate Visa Guide to Living in Europe. Cepee shares her story of moving from the US to Spain at 35 after realizing that the stable life she had built wasn’t the life she wanted. Together, they explore what it really takes to turn the dream of moving abroad into a realistic plan.
They talk about finding your “why,” overcoming the fear that you’re too old to start over, choosing the right destination, taking a scouting trip, understanding the cost of living and taxes, learning the local language, and figuring out which visa options might work for your situation. Cepee also breaks down digital nomad, retirement, self-employment and work visas, and explains why having a realistic plan for work and income is one of the most important parts of a successful move.
This conversation is for women who have been dreaming about living abroad but aren’t sure where to start. Whether you’re considering Spain, Portugal, Italy or another European country, you’ll come away with practical steps to turn endless research into action—and a more realistic understanding of both the challenges and rewards of starting a new life abroad.
Links mentioned in this episode:
About Cepee:
At 35, Cepee (rhymes with peppy!) Tabibian upended her entire life and moved from Texas to Spain without a plan, a stable job, or anyone else (besides her chihuahua, Khloe). Only 24 months later, she had it all figured out—the visa, the job, the community, and better yet, a purpose.
Realizing that nobody was helping women over 30 (the “in betweeners”) move abroad with real-world responsibilities, Cepee established She Hit Refresh in 2017. Now, Cepee has led over 24,000 American women through the process of fast-tracking their move to Europe, finally creating the life they’ve dreamed of in a country that feels like home.
Featured in The New York Times, Forbes, The Wall Street Journal, USA Today, CNN Travel, Business Insider, and many more, Cepee’s signature Move Abroad After 30 Masterclass has helped thousands of women create clear plans for their visa, career, and life overseas. Through her membership, The Refresher’s Lounge, she provides ongoing support, expertise, and accountability for anyone who doesn’t want to figure it out alone.
Cepee is the proud daughter of immigrants—Colombian and Iranian—and grew up in Houston, Texas before becoming an immigrant herself in Spain. She’s also the author of I’m Outta Here! An American’s Ultimate Visa Guide to Living in Europe.
Brought to you by…
The Solo Female Travelers Podcast is sponsored by Solo Female Travelers Tours, our small, luxury, women-only tours that support female owned businesses around the world. Join us on a trip of a lifetime that helps make the travel industry more equitable.
Transcript:
Mar: Welcome to the Solo Female Travelers Podcast. My name is Mar Pages and this week I wanted to talk about a particular kind of fantasy that many of us know very well. Maybe you are sitting at your desk and you’re looking at flights thinking, what if I just move to Europe? Or maybe you are already there on vacation and loving the pace of life and wondering, I could live here. In your twenties, that idea can sound pretty adventurous, and in your 30s, 40s, 50s. It can probably sound scary, impossible, or even irresponsible. And your parents may agree with that statement. You may have a career, a mortgage, children, aging parents, health needs, or simply a life that took years to build.
Or maybe the opposite is true. You have bounced from job to job without ever feeling specially rooted or sure what you are building towards. And either way, the idea of starting over somewhere else keeps coming back. So our guest today is Cepee Tabibian, the founder and CEO of She Hit Refresh. A platform and global community that helps women over 30 move abroad. She’s also the author of I’m Out of Here, an American’s Ultimate Visa Guide to Living in Europe. And at 35, Cepee had a job in tech, a condo in Austin, the kind of stable life that people are usually relieved to have. But it was not the life she wanted. So she quit, moved to Spain, and started over teaching English. Today we are going to talk about what led up to that decision, what starting over really looked like once she got there to Spain, and how to make that dream a reality if you’ve ever had the same one. So Cepee, welcome to the Solo Female Travelers Podcast. How are you?
Cepee: Good, thank you so much. I’m so happy to be here, Mar.
Mar: Yeah, we’re in the same country. That never happens. I never interview somebody who is in the same place as me, no time difference, same weather. I don’t know. I’m pretty sure it’s as hot for you as it is for me.
And before we get into all the practical side of moving abroad, can you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit more about your background and how you ended up in Spain?
Cepee: Yes. So my name is Cepee Rhymes with Peppy, originally from Houston, Texas, daughter of immigrants. My dad’s from Iran. My mom’s from Colombia. And I immigrated to Spain when I was 35. So that was in 2015. So you guys can do the math listening out there.
Mar: We are the same age, you and I.
Cepee: Look at that. We have so much in common. I love that. very young at heart. And we also look very young.
Mar: Young at heart. We look fantastically young.
Cepee: But you know, coming to Spain at 35 wasn’t my first time here. So I often say I tried and failed to move to Spain multiple times in my 20s, tried once again at 35. And luckily it stuck. So I am still here, but as you said, I came here, you know, I had to quit a good life in the US, my adult life. I had real world responsibilities, quit all that to give Spain one more chance. I came here starting from scratch at 35, wasn’t really sure what the plan was, but luckily I’ve been able to figure it out, and here I am over 10 years now, and my life has changed in ways that I don’t think would have been possible if I would have stayed. So that’s a little bit about me. Now I lived in Madrid for five years, and now I’ve been in Malaga for five, but still like trying to move back to Madrid every year. So we’ll see if that ever happens.
Mar: But now you have a partner from Malaga, does he want to move to Madrid?
Cepee: Oh my God, you know what’s funny? My partner from Malaga used to live in the United States. So he would like to move back to San Francisco. I want to move back to Madrid. Malaga is our compromise.
Mar: It’s not a bad compromise. So let’s go back to when you were thirty five. What was missing? And you know, like you had everything. I’m sure your friends and family thought like, okay, you’ve made it, you have everything on paper that everybody needs. When did you know that something was missing and that you wanted something different?
Cepee: Yeah, honestly, it started from my teens. So at 35, it was just a feeling that was constant in much of my life. So I came to Europe the first time when I was 17 to visit some friends over the summer. And that’s when I fell in love with the continent. I came to Spain at 21 and found my place in the world, and so there was just this feeling that I got when I was in Spain of belonging and connection, even though it’s a place that I wasn’t linked to in any way.
And going back and forth, as I said, in my twenties between Spain and the US, I just noticed that in the US, I just was lacking that sense of belonging, connection. And really at 35, if we fast forward to then, I just realized I had somehow ended up on this path that I didn’t want to be on of a nine to five, like wake up, go to work, go to the gym, come home. Eat dinner, watch Netflix, rinse and repeat. And I just realized what was lacking from my life was that sense of belonging, but also fun and a social life. I’m like, I’m 35, I am young, I am single, this is not my place in the world. Like I know where my place is, that’s Spain, but I know it’s gonna be hard to do that at this stage in my life. If I couldn’t do it in my twenties, what makes me think I can do it now?
Mar: And how did you know that it was Spain was missing and not just that you didn’t like Austin or that you didn’t like the US and why not consider other places? Did other places come into play as well?
Cepee: Yeah, so I was a big traveler. So I had traveled to many places and I loved being in Iceland and being in Italy and being in Colombia, all over the world. While I enjoyed being in other places and other places did give me that sense of fun and feeling alive. There just wasn’t a place like Spain, specifically Madrid that made me feel like the best version of myself. And so at thirty-five I knew I should try one more time because if I don’t try now, I’m gonna regret it. Time is just gonna pass. You know, things get harder as you get older. As I mentioned, I was single, child-free. I really didn’t have that many responsibilities. So I thought, let me try one more time to see if it works, and again, to see if this is really what I’m envisioning it is, because time had passed since I was last there, and so I went. And 10 years later, I’m serious.
Mar: And ten years later. How are you looking back? You’re still happy here? You still don’t want to go back to the US or move anywhere else?
Cepee: No, I never want to move back to the US. Like, don’t get me wrong, I enjoy visiting. Actually, I just came back from, you know, a few weeks in the US and I spend a few months out of the year there. And moving somewhere else, you know what? You know, I’ve been in Spain now for a little over 10 years. I do get the itch to try somewhere new temporarily. Like I would love to maybe, I don’t know, live in Asia for a year or two.
But nothing long term. I like it when I look into the future, I see myself in Spain you know, throughout my life.
Mar: And when you think of home, that’s Spain.
Cepee: Spain is the constant, so for sure, for sure.
Mar: And when you were thinking about that, I can just imagine what was going on through your friends’ heads and your parents, right? Like why all of a sudden because it’s not like you had other people in your life that had done that or that you were coming. Of course, your parents were immigrants, but it’s not like they moved before you were born, right? If I’m not mistaken, you were already born in the US. And so I’m sure that there were lots of doubts and lots of things that you questioned, and other people questioned you that meant that you had to think about giving answers. It wasn’t just like, I’m just gonna move. Like I’m sure lots of people were asking you things that made you answer them and think about stuff that maybe you didn’t want to think about or had not thought about. And I’m sure you also had some limiting beliefs, right? So what were some of those that you had and how did you overcome them?
Cepee: For sure. Such a great question. I mean, in the US in your 30s, that’s when you’re settling down. You’re not trying to shake your life up. You’re either married, having kids, or you’re striving to have those things in you know, and growing on the career ladder. I was not in that mental space at 35. I was not trying to get married. I did not want kids. I was enjoying my life.
But for me, yeah, I did have those limiting beliefs of like, am I too old? Like it’s one thing to do this in your 20s multiple times, but I’m halfway to four, like I’m almost 40. 40 was five years around the corner. Like, is this responsible? What am I gonna be able to figure out? Because as you mentioned, I went to teach English. I didn’t really have a grand plan. So what if it didn’t work out? Like, what are people gonna think? Like there was also that fear of what others would say. And just wondering if it was a bad idea, because as you said, I didn’t know anybody my age who had done this, and so it just there weren’t a lot of like positive examples or reasons why to do this. Really, my reasoning was like, because I want to, and no one really could understand that.
Again, they were like, you have it good here. What are you gonna do there? Who do you know there? and so I did have to justify my idea to people. But you know, there was just I just when I look back, there was just this yearning inside of me, this pull of like, I have to do this. Like, even if it’s a bad idea, then I will go there and find out it’s a bad idea and come back. But I have to go and I have to do this. Luckily with my family, actually at that point, my parents had passed away already. In my twenties I had a lot of pressure to come back to the US and just get a job. That’s what my dad kept telling me, like. stop, dilly dallying in Spain, like come back and like grow up. At thirty five I didn’t have that pressure. I did have family members who were like, is this a good idea? But in the end they knew who I was. I had been bopping around the world for many years and so I did it and here I am.
Mar: I guess that it’s always like at least I think in those terms usually, like what’s the worst thing that can happen, right? And then did you plan for the worst? Like worst thing is I just come back to the US and I get another job.
Cepee: Yeah, honestly that was it. I was like, the worst is my life right now, right? I’m just gonna come back and be doing what I’m doing right now.
Mar: Exactly. Like your default was a good life already. And you know, you had no responsibilities or other people to take care of, right? So you had the freedom to choose that on your own. And then it’s only you need to depend on and care about, right? And
Cepee: For sure. But I also went with the mentality like I’m gonna figure this out. Like I am not coming back. Like I will find a solution and find a way to stay. I just knew I just needed to get there and then I could figure out what’s next.
Mar: Right. You know, in your TED talks, and in several of your interviews and social media content, you always talk about that idea of moving abroad, that it can remove a lot of the expectations around who you’re supposed to be and give you that space and freedom to become who you really are. And lots of people say this when they travel solo, right? Like, I can just be myself when I’m when I’m on my own, away from home, nobody knows me, I can just be whoever I am, and you mentioned that you never saw yourself as an entrepreneur in the US, but that in Spain it feels natural and that’s how you started She Hit Refresh and become a business owner without anybody else questioning or anybody else saying, like, is this a good idea? Are you an entrepreneur? Were you meant to be an entrepreneur?
Was moving to Spain really what you needed to get this kind of distance from your whole identity and imagine another different version of yourself?
Cepee: Yeah, I think so. In the US there were a lot of expectations, whether that’s community, society, family, of what you’re supposed to do and the path you’re supposed to take. And honestly, since I got my first job at seventeen, I just knew like an office, nine to five in the US, two weeks vacation was never for me. You know, after years of trying to move to Spain and failing, I just thought this is what you do. You just conform and you just hate this until you retire. So leaving the US and being in Spain just gave me another path, like another possibility for my future. Although I didn’t know exactly what that was. Already it put me in a place where I could think differently and where I didn’t have those external expectations put upon me.
Mar: Do you also think that because the culture in Spain is a bit different and like we just have a different pace of life and we value different things that in the US that also was maybe something that was more aligned with who you are?
Cepee: For sure, because there wasn’t this pressure of like you have to be somebody like in the US. Like if I just wanted to have a simple job, like no one’s gonna be questioning that. It just feels different here than in the US. I mean, obviously it’s quite famous that like in the US everyone leads with like, what do you do? That’s like one of the first questions they ask you.
And in Spain, you could be talking to someone for three hours and still not know what they do for work. So I just felt like my identity wouldn’t be so wrapped around my work here. That’s what I noticed in people. But the second part of that is like I was an immigrant here. I could not tap into the workforce here because of my visa situation. So I had to figure out something else. So also by being here, I was put in a very different situation. In the US, I could just apply to jobs, go to interviews and get a job. That was not the opportunity that I had here in Spain. And so naturally it just put myself in a mindset, an entrepreneurial mindset of like, well, what can I do to stay if I can’t get hired? Yeah, ’cause you have to be.
Mar: Yeah, you say immigrants are very resourceful, right? And this is why, because you need to like to find solutions. You cannot just do like what everybody else does, right? There’s no clear path like you can if you’re a local, right? Visa situation being one of the main constraints, right? And you know, when I was reading the story of how you created She Hit Refresh, I mean I had been following you for quite a long time before we reached out to this interview. It feels quite familiar as well when I compare it with solo female travelers because you started with Women gathering online, the community is six more than 16 years old now, swapping stories, helping each other. And then, you know, we grew into tours. And you started the She Hit Refresh Facebook group in 2017, if I’m not mistaken. And at that point, it was just a community for people to like to meet each other and talk about how to move to Spain or to other countries, I suppose.
And now you have 4,000 people, right? And it’s all been growing word of mouth. So now you feel like you have been in touch with thousands of women who have moved abroad, right? Once these ideas start to be quite serious, it’s easy to get very overwhelmed. I’m sure you see it all the time with visas, work, money, all of the important things, right?
And you often tell women not to copy your original move because you arrive with a one year teaching visa without a clear path for what is gonna come next, right? Like you just said, like I just knew that I had to move there and then the rest would come, right? And I love that in all your social media content, you never sugarcoat things and you tell it how it is, and you don’t present this idea of moving abroad as like everything is roses and butterflies and everything is gonna be great, and there’s like no rose tinted glasses, right? it’s not like suddenly you move abroad and you’re happy, like all of a sudden, you know, life abroad is still life, right? That’s what you say in some of your words.
And this is very true, right? This is when you’re on your solo trip. Everything is wonderful because you’re on holiday, right? But once you move to a place, it’s very different, right? Like now you have to be there, you have to have a normal life, you have to find a job, you have to do your groceries, you have you have to do all of the things that people do in their day to day, right?
So if a woman is thinking, I want to move abroad, how can she find out if this is truly what she wants? Or is she trying to get away from their problems? Because this is also like what sometimes it is, right? It’s not that I want to move to Spain. It’s that I want to get away from the US or I don’t like my life in the US, right? So how can I guess this is the first thing that you try to find out with people who reach out to you wanting to move, right? Do they really want to move? How do you find that out?
Cepee: Yeah, such a great question. And it’s great. I mean, I think that’s kind of the start is you have to look at your why, like what are your motivations for doing this? Yeah, your why or why you want to move. For me, I just didn’t feel that sense of belonging in the US. It’s not that I hated the US or like I wanted to flee the US. It just wasn’t like this is not my place, and there’s somewhere else where, like I mentioned, I felt like the best version of myself and I want to live there. That was my why. But that’s what I have women start with because it’s easy to read a news article about some woman who moved to France and it seems so spectacular and her life is great, and you want that too for yourself. But your motivation is gonna be different. and if you’re just trying to flee the US, that probably isn’t the best reason to do so.
And it’s probably not a great indicator that you’re gonna be happy somewhere else, right? Because you really need to understand first, yeah, your why, but then also start doing some research on where you would want to be, because when people say they want to move abroad, that’s so nebulous. That can mean so many things and mean something different to everybody else. So for someone to even start crafting their unique plan, they have to understand their motivations, their wants, their needs, kind of the life they’re envisioning for themselves. So that’s where everything starts before you even get into some of the more important logistical parts of the move. Now I would say you can’t know from the beginning if it’s the right decision for you. I always tell people you can’t know until you do it, unfortunately. But you can prepare yourself and set yourself up for success by doing it by following a few key steps and your why is the first one.
Mar: Right. And then walk me through the next steps. Let’s say that somebody’s like sure, sure, sure that that’s what they want and what they really want to do is move to Europe in your case, right? Because you focus mostly on Europe. So what would be the steps that somebody needs to focus on at a high level to to move to go from yes, I’m sure to I’m moving somewhere?
Cepee: Okay. So we’re sure we know why. Next, we need to recognize that moving abroad takes work and is hard. Okay. So like you said, I don’t sugarcoat things. This is not gonna be easy. It’s gonna be an emotional roller coaster. You’re gonna have moments where you’re gonna doubt yourself and be like, Am I crazy? Why am I doing this? Should I be doing this? It’s hard work. There’s a lot of challenges you have to overcome, problems you have to solve.
We just accept that that’s a part of the process. Okay, so I tell people we have to have that mindset. And that also helps us put on a solution based mindset. I think sometimes people think everyone who’s moved abroad just had it easy, didn’t have the same problems I did or whomever did. That’s not the case. Actually, everyone who’s moved abroad had to overcome challenges.
Mar: And most people don’t talk about the downsides, right? They just talk about beautiful life in Provence or in Malaga or in Tuscany, right? They don’t tell you how hard it was to get there and all the paperwork.
Cepee: Yeah. All the paperwork or their visa getting rejected or whatever, so understand that. But after that, then let’s talk about the really practical parts. Number one, what are you gonna do for work? Can you get a visa for where you wanna move to? And can you afford to move to where you’re looking to go? And affording means like crunching the numbers, understanding cost of living, but also understanding your tax obligations. I feel like that is such a surprise for people. They move and then they’re like, my gosh, I didn’t realize that the taxes were maybe this much higher here than compared to the US. So that’s really it. Figure out your why, understand this takes work. What are you gonna do for work? What visa can you get? And can you afford to live there? I think that’s a very healthy starting point for someone to then start creating a realistic plan that can work for them.
Mar: What are the most common excuses that you hear from people and how do they get past them?
Cepee: Yeah. I think the excuses for people who want to move abroad. I’m never trying to convince anyone to move abroad, but for those who want to but who haven’t done it, a lot of times I hear the excuses like, I think I’m just too old. I work with women in their thirties, forties, fifties, sixties, and above. I mean, I’ve helped someone seventy move abroad. So like you’re never too old. And also today is the youngest you’re ever gonna be. So I mean, five years you’re gonna wish you would have done this five years ago. But I think other excuses I hear, people they’re like, well, I just don’t know if it’s gonna work out. Like they want some kind of guarantee. Like, I don’t know if this is the right decision. And again, there’s no guarantee this is the right decision. There’s no guarantee it’s gonna work out. This is life doesn’t come with guarantees, unfortunately.
And I think another one is around like I have X challenge. So again, someone’s saying, like, well, I don’t have a remote job, or there’s not a visa for me. I don’t have enough money, or I have aging parents. And I get that those are all real challenges. But people who have moved abroad have had those challenges. The point is that you’re not gonna move abroad without challenges. The point is that you need to find solutions to those challenges so that you can move abroad.
Mar: Yeah, and probably one of the hardest to overcome challenges for somebody who, let’s say, is single and doesn’t have other responsibilities would be the job part, right? Because some jobs are not transferable. If you are a doctor or you’re a lawyer, that’s very dependent on the country. Your skills are transferable, but you may need to go through lots of loops like converting titles and adapting to maybe the regulation and the local laws are completely different. So your law degree doesn’t help at all, or you need to convert your medical degree. Like lots of people will have those kinds of challenges that are quite important, right? And so then it’s about, I guess, finding a different career path, right?
Cepee: Yeah, I mean, definitely regulated professions, yes, healthcare law. There are challenges to that. So possibly, maybe there’s a firm. If you’re a lawyer in the US, you could get transferred to a foreign country and you could work, I don’t know, with US law. I don’t know. You have to look into that. Those are very specialized cases. I would say for the majority of women I work with, it’s mostly that they have a job that they cannot take abroad, right? Maybe they work remotely, but their company won’t let them take the remote job to Germany or to France. And so then they need to either find a different remote job or find a different work path. That’s typically the main challenge for people, is just figuring out how to take work with them or find work abroad.
Mar: Yeah. And I like your idea of a scouting trip. Like me it sounds quite obvious. I’m pretty sure that most people have decided that they want to move somewhere because they’ve been there, right? And they liked what they saw. Like I feel like this usually comes with, like, I’ve been to this place. I really would love to live there. And then my situation at home is not great, or I don’t like my country, or I want to go somewhere else, or I identify with that lifestyle. And so your idea of a scouting trip, right? This is what we do also when we launch our tours, right? When I go there, I spend some time there. You know, it’s true that when you’re on holiday, you’re romanticizing a place, right? You’re on holidays, you only see the goods and you see none of the bad, right? You don’t see the bureaucracy, you don’t see whatever it is that’s not great. You’re on vacation and so it’s very different from living there, right? And so you’re talking about scouting trips, being like walking in ordinary neighborhoods, doing your groceries, maybe like renting an apartment for a couple of months and living like a local there, right? Last December I spent a month in Malta and you know it’s very different from visiting Malta, right? Like, you know, when you have to bring down your groceries in the city center in Valletta, you need to bring them down every day to a different type of rubbish. So like on Mondays you bring down your organics, and on Tuesday you bring down your I don’t know what, and only from like nine to ten p.m. at night, like sometime.
So I was like, wow, this is so cumbersome to live here. In Barcelona, we have similar rules too. You can only bring down your rubbish in the city center at night because there are no rubbish containers. So you need to bring it down and they collect it. So like there’s it’s very different from being there on holidays, right? Like your groceries, the fact that in many countries in Europe at five everything is closed. And like on Sundays, nobody works, right? And in August, nobody works.
It’s quite important to find a place that matches your vibe and your lifestyle. Like I could never live in a Nordic country. You say you could never live somewhere cold. There is no way I could live somewhere cold, right? Like I just I’m a much more social outdoorsy sun kind of person, right? So all of this is super important and you can only do that if you spend enough time in a place, right? So how would you organize a scouting trip? What is the best way to do it? Do you tell people to go there, spend two months and then check it out?
Cepee: Yes. Well, I agree with everything you said. I think scouting trips are so key. Not everybody can afford to do one. So if you can’t do one, then that’s fine. But I highly recommend doing it. So I tell people to go for as much time as you can. Some people only have a week, you know. A lot of people in the US don’t have a lot of vacation. And if they can’t take their work remotely there, then they are limited by the amount of time they have. So if you can only go a week, go a week. But if you can go for a month, two months, three months, as long as your tourist visa allows you, do it. Because that, like you said, Mar, is gonna give you an insight to what it’s like to live there. Because when you’re going on a scouting trip, again, this is not a vacation. So you definitely want to try to live like a local.
And also scouting trips, they’re so different. There’s no one way to do it. Like some people go to more than one country. Some people go to a few different cities. So I would say don’t overdo it. Try to pick your top three. If you maybe want to move to Spain, what are the top three cities you have? if you haven’t narrowed it down to one and spend some time in those three cities. Some people have had, they’re looking at maybe Lisbon or Barcelona. Okay, so then split your scouting trip between those two. But really what you want to do there is live like a local. And what I mean by that is yes, walk those neighborhoods, talk to a real estate agent, go to meetups, talk to locals, talk to other foreigners who have lived there, ask them your questions. Try to go to the pharmacy, see if you can get your medication and if you need a prescription for that, or if you can get over the counter. And also, this is my favorite tip, go during your least favorite season. Because it is easy to love a place. I love summer. So any city you take me to in the summer, I’m gonna love it. but not every city is an eternal summer. So if you don’t like the winter, go to your target city in winter and see if you can love it at its worst, right? I think that’s a big surprise I see for people, especially for Portugal, that go in the summer and then they move there and they’re like, wait a minute, why is the winter so damp and cold and inside I’m freezing?
Mar: And so long.
Cepee: And so long and gray. Very different from that summer vibe.
Mar: I like that. Go and see the love of your life at their worst and see if you still like it. Hundred percent, hundred percent. Hundred percent.
Cepee: At the worst. Yes. If you can handle that.
Mar: And you know, like for those who I’m sure that there’s other things you can do as well, or if you cannot spend a long time, what other things can you do remotely? What other tools can you use to assess whether a place is for you or like to get in touch with people? You know, there’ll be Facebook groups of a place, I suppose. What else is there out there?
Cepee: Yeah, I mean I think Facebook groups are great. I know people don’t want to be on Facebook anymore, but the group still, there’s so much great information. The groups are hit or miss. But in those, if you don’t want to ask questions, you can just search, but you can get some, you know, information from other people like you who have made that move. Also, there are websites like Expatistan or Numbeo where you can get data. So, like I was talking about, crunch the numbers. So if you want to see what a one-bedroom apartment costs, like an average cost. If you want to see what a carton of milk costs, the gym utilities, just to get an idea of what you’re coming up against. And in those Facebook groups, you can ask questions. So if you have certain medication, you can ask people like, Do you know if I can get X there? So I would say just tap into communities that are already existing in the target cities that you’re looking to go to to ask questions about. And then of course, YouTube, like everybody who’s moved anywhere has a YouTube channel. So you can get a lot of information there. There’s gonna be a lot of things missing, right? That you can only get from being there yourself. But if you can’t go, use as many online tools as you can.
Mar: Right. Because in the end, like I guess the most important thing to start point, like you said earlier, is to find out how much money you need, right? Because that will determine the kind of job you need to get, right? I lived in Singapore for twelve years, right? If you want to move to Singapore, it’s important that you make at least five thousand, six thousand dollars a month, right? Otherwise you will have a very different life from the one you’re envisioning because rental is extremely expensive, going out is extremely expensive. So if you cannot make that much money, then maybe that’s not the place you should move to. Spain. quite affordable, right? You can live in Spain quite well for fifteen hundred euros a month, I think, right? So it’s good to go online. I am in some expat groups in Barcelona and I see people asking this kind of thing quite often, right? Like how much money do I need to live well here? You know? And that’s a very personal situation as well. Like some people are very social. They like to go out all the time, they like to spend money and some people live a very frugal life, right? So you know, with fifteen hundred euros I think you can have a good life. Of course if you’re like a massive spender, no. If you like to go out and travel every weekend, no. But that’s a minimum, right? And that will determine the kind of job you need to get, right?
Cepee: For sure. And I would say fifteen hundred depending on Spain. Like now that’s impossible. In Malaga, Madrid, Barcelona, like a one bedroom now is fifteen hundred, which is crazy. So I also tell people like crunch numbers of today, like, yes, a lot of places were affordable a few years ago before the pandemic, but with inflation, housing shortages, like prices are actually insane right now in so many places. So you know, what people were getting before, those really aren’t the numbers of today. So really crunch the numbers so that you’re not surprised by what you can and can’t afford. Because the last thing you want to do is move abroad and then have money problems.
Mar: Yeah, absolutely. And also I think that many many Americans may also underestimate how high taxes are in Europe in general, right? Of course they come with free healthcare and free education and lots of, you know, welfare benefits. However, taxes are high. You can pay as high as more than fifty percent in Spain, right? you should not underestimate how much money you’re paying. In Catalonia, I believe the highest percentage is fifty six percent. You need to. It’s progressive, right? Like in many countries. So it’s fifty-six only after a certain amount. But yeah, it’s quite high. And then of course there’s VAT and many other taxes.
You get a lot of things for free for that price, but Nordic countries also have very high taxes. So I’m sure that that’s something that many Americans may underestimate because in the US these taxes are not so high, right? so you talk a lot about the great parts of moving abroad, but you also talk about the boring and and you know the harder realities. You say that, you know, for a country to feel like home. I have to be able to communicate. I could not agree more with this, right? There’s no way you can move to Spain and build a life here and like to integrate if you don’t speak the language, right? People communicate in Spanish, in Catalan, in other regional languages, right? I’ve lived in three different countries and I always could communicate in English because these were countries where English was one of the official languages.
However, I’m pretty sure that in Singapore, if I spoke Chinese or Mandarin, I would have had a very different experience than in my case where I didn’t, right? It just never felt like I was fully integrated with the Singaporean community because the language was something with the Chinese Singaporean community because I didn’t speak Mandarin, right? and you say that it also took you quite a while to feel like you were fully integrated and to make friends. And you didn’t speak Spanish when you moved to Spain, right? So you also had to learn that.
So how much, how important is the language and how do people think about that when they think about moving to Europe? Do they think like, okay, I want to move to Lisbon, I’ll move with English. If I want to move to Barcelona, I’ll move with English. How important is this? And you know, what other ways can people socialize? And is it like a deal breaker? Or can you build a life with expats and foreigners? Because you know, in Barcelona, for example, there are so many foreigners. You can absolutely not speak the language and have a very thriving life with foreigners, right?
Cepee: Yeah, such a great question. Well, I do tell people because I get the question, people are like, Well, I don’t speak the language, so should I move there? Yes, you can move somewhere without being fluent. People do it every day, like it’s fine. You don’t have to get fluent to move somewhere, but you should want to make an effort to learn the local language. As you said, like you just miss out on so much of the culture of connection. But at the same time, if you’re moving to Europe, most big cities are going to have an expat, a foreign community, an English speaking community. So you can definitely make friends, find a sense of belonging and kind of be in that bubble if you want to. Do I suggest that? No, but that is there for you.
Most of my closest friends in Spain are English speakers, but that doesn’t mean that I just only am in an expat bubble. So you can be in both, but I highly encourage you, like if you don’t speak the language before you moved, To make an effort once you move with classes, volunteer, like do what you can to start increasing your level because that’s how you’re gonna be able to get into those local circles.
In Spain, depending on where you are, some people speak English, some people don’t. And if you want to integrate, learning the language is gonna be the only way to break into those circles. I will also say learning a language takes time. I think people underestimate how much time it takes. I see a lot of people like, okay, I’ll move there, and so in a year I’ll be fluent. I’m like, in a year, but unless you are very gifted at languages, it’s gonna take you years. Fluency is at the next level. Like in a year, you’ll be happy to just be able to communicate, kind of day-to-day stuff, but it takes a lot of time and effort, and feeling dumb to learn a language well. It’s a very humbling experience, I would say. So all that’s to say, give yourself grace and just know it’s gonna take years for you to speak at a level that is very similar to your level in English.
Mar: Right, but also from the locals’ perspective, right? If I’m meeting somebody who is a foreigner who doesn’t speak the language and is not making any effort to learn the language, I’m feeling like this is not a relationship that’s long term, right? This person is passing. It’s temporary. Therefore I’m not gonna invest in them, right?
Cepee: Yeah. Rightly so. And I would say Spain is a country where people are so generous and so patient. So just try the little that you can and they will be so appreciative of it. And I just am just baffled every time I see somebody struggling through Spanish and I just see the Spanish person on the other side just being so kind and patient and warm and not making that person feel bad. So Spain is a great country to practice your Spanish in. They won’t make you feel bad about it. They’ll very much appreciate it.
Mar: I’m sure lots of people choose the UK or Ireland because English is the main language, right?
Cepee: Well they do, but from an American’s perspective the visas are very hard to get. So not a lot of people can move there, even though they would like to.
Mar: So now you bring up the next topic that I wanted to talk about, which I think is the one that people feel most daunting. Like the biggest mountain. And granted, this is the most cumbersome possible and also the most soul crushing, right? Like there’s nothing worse than dealing with bureaucracy. And in many European countries, the bureaucracy is soul crushing. I mean, in Spain, the bureaucracy can kill you. However, it’s not the worst, having experience with tours in so many European countries, I would say Greece is probably worse. Italy is terrible when it comes to bureaucracy, right? And this is a very unglamorous part of moving abroad, right? And I know that you spend a lot of time on this and putting together a guide which has fifty countries in Europe, or many countries in Europe, right? And there is a process and how to get through that.
So tell me a little bit more about that book and let’s talk about the visa next.
Cepee: Yes, because I got so many questions about visas. Americans assume they couldn’t move to Europe and I discovered all these visas once I moved here. I wrote a book that’s An American’s Ultimate Visa Guide to Living in Europe. So it covers twenty countries and has over fifty viable visa options for Americans. And I update it every year. So in this book, you will find all kinds of visas. But when we talk about visas, as an American, you’re gonna need a visa to move to Europe, unless you have, you know, a European passport, which most people don’t. but there are some visas that are kind of the main visas that Americans are using to move here. And I would say those are the digital nomad visas. the self-employment visa, retirement visa. And then there’s even a country like Albania where you don’t even need a visa if you’re a US citizen. You can just hop up and go tonight and live there tomorrow with no bureaucracy.
Mar: Georgia’s well, right? Georgia is the same thing.
Cepee: Yeah, Georgia as well. Georgia is for like over 90 different nationalities. So you have some options there too. But all this to say to move abroad, you gotta figure out the visa piece, otherwise you can’t get there. Like I said, a lot of people want to move to the UK, but the UK does not offer a digital nomad visa, and doesn’t really offer a viable self-employment visa. So that’s why some countries are harder than others, and that’s because of the visa situation.
Mar: Right, you’re right. The US doesn’t have a digital nomad or a self employment visa. You’re right. The US is pretty hard to move to unless you get a job or you marry somebody. I guess these are the fastest ways.
Cepee: Exactly. I would say that’s kind of true for Nordic countries and the UK as well. Unless you’re very highly specialized, if you have a highly specialized skill. But then again, that’s a work visa. Yeah.
Mar: So most let’s say most countries would have a digital nomad or a self-employed or a retirement visa because you focus on women over thirty, but you know, typically I think historically people have considered two types of moments to move abroad, right? You either move abroad when you’re young and you have no responsibilities and you just graduated, maybe you have like in my case, right? I just moved abroad when I was twenty-five, or you move abroad when you’re retired. Lots of people dream about moving with your pension, right? So many British people in Spain, so many Americans in Mexico. Just moving there to retire because they have a passive income and they can live in another country that may be more affordable and that allows them to live with a US pension or a European pension somewhere else.
But we are talking about everybody else, right? You’re not in these kinds of two situations. You focus on women who are professionals who already have a life and who just move abroad, right? So let’s talk about these three visas or other visas, but in general, what are right now at this moment? Because this changes a lot. The most popular countries in Europe for Americans and Canadians are foreigners in general to move to, and why?
Cepee: Yeah. So the most popular countries are popular because they have the easiest visas or they have quite a few visa options, giving more people options. So those kind of go hand in hand when we say easiest. So right now I mentioned the digital nomad visa. That visa just started in 2020 in Estonia. Before that, there was no such thing as a digital nomad visa. And it only became like Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Croatia now have that. But Spain’s Digital Nomad Visa came out, I think, two years ago. I get the years all mixed up. I don’t know if it was 2023, 2024. But that’s all to say it’s very, very new.
So right now, most people are moving to Spain, I would say, on this digital nomad visa. Portugal as well. And then probably behind that for digital nomad visas, Greece and Croatia. So those are your options if you are self-employed, work remotely, if you’re an employee working for a company or if you’re a freelancer.
Mar: So you already have your own income.
Cepee: You already have your own income, you have a job, you can prove that you have that. You need a work contract. There are nuances with each country’s application. So you have to meet certain requirements in addition to the income requirement. But in general, basically you’re bringing a job with you that you can do remotely from the country that you’re applying to.
Mar: And these visas are not forever though, right? They have a time limit.
Cepee: Well, in Croatia, that’s only good for 18 months. So Croatia is kind of like a one and done. You go and you can’t, you’re not gonna be living in Croatia long term. But in Spain, Portugal, and Greece, those visas actually are renewable and do allow you to accrue time to permanent residency and even to citizenship. So Spain, Portugal, and Greece are kind of long term options to living in Europe if you can meet the requirements to renew the visa.
Mar: Okay, so these would be great options for people who already have their own job that is remote that they can do from anywhere and so on and they meet the minimum requirements because I believe there’s a minimum income requirement, right? And then you need to pay taxes. This is very important.
Cepee: For sure. And then you need to pay taxes. And then you need Yes. In Spain you need to pay taxes for sure. Greece is questionable.
Mar: Greece is questionable of what I feel like applies to a lot of things.
Cepee: Yeah, Greece, the people there don’t know. They’re like, I have not been charged for taxes, but I’m not sure at some point they’re gonna ask me. So Portugal, yes, Portugal you have to pay taxes as well.
Mar: So you’re basically a resident, you’re a tax resident here, so you need to pay taxes, right? You’re not just like you’re a tax resident, so you need to pay taxes here. And for most Americans, they also need to at least file taxes back in the US too for life, right?
Cepee: Yes. Yes, you have to file, but because you’re paying taxes in a foreign country, most likely you can use as a credit to your US taxes.
Mar: Great. So now we have the case for people who work online. Like you and I, we could move somewhere to these countries, with a digital nomad visa. And like you say, that’s also quite important. There’s a path for permanent residency because after you have a digital nomad visa or a work visa or whatever, at some point you may want to apply for your own permanent residency, independent of your job status, right?
Cepee: Exactly. And then you can be on the track possibly for citizenship.
Mar: Okay, great. So first like some sort of job visa, let’s say temporary visa, then permanent residency and then citizenship in some countries. Now let’s imagine you’re a retired person. You have your income, you don’t have to work, you just have passive income.
What would be the best place to live with that? Because there are retirement visas.
Cepee: Yeah, there’s a lot of them actually in Europe. A lot of them are going to be in the southern country, southern Europe. So again, Spain, Portugal, France has one, Italy has one, Greece has one. Those are probably the most popular ones. There are a few other ones out there, but those visas are pretty easy to qualify for. Some of them are based on passive income and some are based on savings, some are both. So there are some nuances there. But if you have a pension, then you most likely could qualify for one of these visas. And these visas also allow you to earn time towards permanent residency and possibly citizenship as well.
Mar: Now let’s talk about the most difficult case. Somebody who has a job who is not gonna be able to move with and they cannot transfer and they need to kind of like start from scratch, a little bit like your case, right? What would be the best situation for those, the best countries for those people?
Cepee: Yeah, so it’s tough. I mean, I often tell people to try to get the digital nomad visa. So that means that you’re gonna have to find a remote job first that will allow you to qualify for the visa. It’s a tough job market now, so it’s taken people a long time to find these jobs, but that’s what I would recommend. Another option for you is to try to get a work visa sponsorship in a country in Europe, but that is extremely difficult for an American. Europe is protecting local labor. So they have to basically prove that nobody in Europe can do the job they’re looking for before they can even start looking outside of Europe. Unless you have a highly specialized skill and there’s a labor shortage for it, you’re probably not gonna get that. so that’s something to keep in mind.
Another kind of option we didn’t talk about, there is a self-employment visa in a few countries. And this visa allows you to either start a business or register a business in a foreign country. Or even if you’re an existing freelancer, you could go this path too instead of the digital nomad visa. And this self-employment visa, the countries that have these, the Netherlands is very popular for this, Germany and France as well. So whether you have your own business or you’re thinking of starting one, this could be an option too.
Mar: So then that would mean I want to start X business and so I am employing myself through the company that I am starting in that country. And then of course the business needs to meet some requirements, I guess, for you to get the visa.
Cepee: I yeah, generally since the business doesn’t have to be existing, you have to have a business plan. So you basically have to show that there’s some kind of need in the country, but you don’t have to prove that you are generating income yet when you first apply. At some point you will, so that’s why they want you to have a business plan and kind of do your research and make sure like there’s a need for it. But again, you don’t have to have an up and running business to apply for this visa
Mar: And we’ve been talking mostly about the same countries, right? Spain, Portugal, Greece. We haven’t talked about Italy. What is the path for somebody wanting to move to Italy?
Cepee: Yeah, Italy has quite a few visas. So Italy does have a digital nomad visa, but it’s kind of hard to get. So I don’t talk about it too much. They have a retirement visa, so that’s great. Those would be the two best ones. They do have a work visa, but it’s very hard. So I would say probably the retirement visa, and possibly the digital nomad visa for someone who’s very determined, but it’s one of the harder ones to get.
Mar: Right. And then for all the northern European countries, then it would be basically you need to get a job, you need to get a sponsorship.
Cepee: Yeah, you need the sponsorship or marry a local because there’s no options there.
Mar: We haven’t talked about that option, but it’s always an option. There’s the fast track.
Cepee: Right? It’s a fast track. It’s not my line of work, but somebody should probably start that business.
Mar: There are. I have actually come across businesses like companies in the US that will take you to Italy and help you meet people. I’m not joking.
Cepee: There we go. Hey, I’m sure they’re making good money. That’s good business.
Mar: Eat pray love, I’m sure, like help bring a lot of people interested to the region. And I guess that’s also another one which is investment, right? There are some countries that will give you a residency if you invest a certain amount. I believe even Spain has that.
Cepee: Yeah, so there are, but a lot of countries have been repealing those. So Spain actually got rid of its golden visa, so that’s not an option anymore. Portugal changed theirs, so real estate investment no longer counts, but you can make investments into institutions. and I think Greece still has it for certain areas, but for a lot of people it’s just not viable because the investments usually start around 500,000 euros cash. and so yeah, that’s where that would start. But a lot of countries are repealing the investment visas.
Mar: Right, because this had some downside, right? Lots of people were buying real estate in Lisbon and then making it extremely expensive for the locals to live, right?
Cepee: Yeah, or just leaving it empty, right?
Mar: Yeah, pushing the rental prices up and like just having empty spaces in the cities. I remember that. Great. So lots of options. I’m sure that people listening are already starting to like those who are interested in moving to Europe, they’re already like assessing their options, like quickly going through their possibilities and so on. And I know that this is what you do on your day to day basis, right? In y in your community,
This is what you do helping women in whatever situation they are in to try to find a way into making their dream a reality. So before we wrap up, I want to help the woman who has had the same European country saved on her phone for three years or four years or five.
What is something useful that she can do this week to turn that dream into a plan?
Cepee: Yeah, okay, great question. So I think the first thing you can do is probably to join some kind of community, whether that’s a Facebook group, or get on a Reddit thread. I have a Facebook group, I have a community, but just get somewhere where you are surrounding yourself with kind of like yes people, people who are gonna empower you. Because sometimes I feel like when we have this dream and we share it with our friends and family, they’re like, that’s crazy. You’re too old. Like they’re projecting all their fears on us.
Mar: And they’re selfish right? Like they don’t want you to go away because they want to keep you, they love you, right? They want to keep you close.
Cepee: They love you. They want you close. But also, this is not their dream. They could never fathom this. So there’s a lot of fear wrapped around it for them. and so that you can really start to internalize their fears. So there’s nothing more empowering you can do than to put yourself, surround yourself with people who are like, yeah, you can do that. Yeah, that is possible. Yes, I’ve done that where you can see examples. So get into some kind of community so you can start seeing the examples and seeing the possibilities. So that’s number one. That’s the first step.
Mar: Great. And what should she stop doing? That she thinks maybe it’s working but it’s not helping her get closer to her dream.
Cepee: Let’s stop doing the endless research. The 17 Google tabs, the like saving all the inspirational Instagram reels. Like research is great. Yes, you have to do research to figure out things, but research can also feel like progress. Actually what gets you clarity is action. You have to start taking action and making decisions. That is gonna help you so much more than endless research. So what I mean by that is you have to start making decisions like, okay, I want to move to Spain. Okay, so let me figure out what visas I can qualify for. And now, okay, I can qualify for the digital nomad visa or I can’t. What do I need to qualify for that? Okay, so what am I going to do to try to qualify for that? So start making decisions and taking action because that is what’s gonna move the needle forward, not just listening to more people talking about how they did it.
Mar: Absolutely. You know, you had been to Spain multiple times and so you had attempted to move to Spain, let’s say, like you said at the beginning multiple times before making it happen. But I’m sure there were still things that you wish you had known before you moved. What are some of those?
Cepee: What do I wish I’d known before I moved? I mean, I think the language thing is something I wish people would have told me. You know, you just kind of assume like when you move somewhere, you’re just gonna absorb the language and you’re gonna be fluent so quickly. And that just wasn’t the case. Like it just takes a lot longer, it’s a lot harder. And there’s a lot of internal work that you have to do because learning a language and not being good at it can make you feel really bad. Feel like there’s something wrong with you when you’re just not getting it, when actually it’s a very just normal part of the process, right? So I wish someone would have just kind of held my hand and been like, this is all totally normal.
Something else I think someone would have told me is that the emotional roller coaster that you feel that I mentioned, comes and goes. Like it’s not because you move abroad, everything’s gonna be great and your life is perfect. Like we said, life abroad is still life. So you’re still gonna have moments where even after you lived here for years. You might doubt your decision or you might feel bad or you might feel homesick or lonely. And that’s totally normal too. That’s all a part of the process of moving somewhere and living somewhere and really doing that on your own.
Mar: Yes, this is like long term travelers, right? Digital nomads or people who travel for a long time will say that some of the hardest parts are that you’re not gonna be there for the important parts of some of your friends or your family’s lives, because you cannot always be at every wedding and every funeral and every celebration. And so you just have to accept that you’re not gonna be there.
Cepee: Yeah, exactly. And you know, that’s kind of the downside of making the choice to live here. But there’s so many upsides to it. But not every day is gonna feel exciting and great, you’re gonna just like in life in general, you’re gonna have days where you feel down and lonely and that’s totally normal.
Mar: I’m sure there have also been some women in your community that decided to go back home. What do you think are some of the main mistakes that they made?
Cepee: Honestly, the same reasons why people go back are due to money or work. and a lot of times they just didn’t figure out that work piece fully. And so they got abroad and they tried to make it work and it just didn’t. And they were running out of money and so they had to go back. So that’s why I just can’t stress enough crunching the numbers, saving double what you think you need, and really having a viable plan for what you’re gonna do for work and income, because that’s the piece that can really make or break you for a long-term move abroad.
Mar: Yeah, absolutely. Great. Well thank you so much, Cepee I know that whoever is listening now, maybe maybe we’ve convinced some people to move that didn’t have that idea before because they thought it was impossible, right? Like the visa part I’m sure is quite daunting for a lot of people. And if you’ve never looked at it, I see it even in the group, right? There’s a lot of misconceptions and a lot of misunderstanding of what you can and cannot do.
And also the other way around, people thinking that they can just move to Europe and work and And work online and that’s gonna be fine. And no, that requires a visa in some cases, even if you’re not here permanently. But I’m sure that today’s conversation helped a lot.
And before we finish, can you tell people a little bit more about She Hit Refresh, how you help women, what they can do next, how they can connect with you, where they can find you, what is the community that you mentioned?
Cepee: For sure. So She Hit Refresh. So we help women age 30 and over figure out and fast track their move abroad. So we try to help the overwhelm of moving abroad feel a lot less overwhelming. And so we do that in a few ways. Like I said, I have a free Facebook group if you want to join Instagram. I give out a lot of free tips. Everything is She Hit Refresh, but we also have a membership called the Refreshers Lounge. And this is our community for women who are actively working on their move abroad. So this is for women who are serious about making their move abroad happen but want hand holding to help them overcome all of those blockers you’re gonna face.
So if you don’t know what you’re gonna do for work, come join us because we help our members figure out the work piece. If you’re struggling with visas, we do that. We also have expat therapists come in to help with the mental side of things, and so much more. So if you’re looking for holistic support for your move, come join us in the lounge.
Mar: Great, She Hit Refresh. We’ll add the links in the show notes. And thank you so much, Cepee. It was nice to meet you. As I said, I have been following you on Instagram for a little while. So when we started the podcast, I was like, we should talk to Cepee. I’m sure she will have some useful things to tell the community. So it was nice to meet you. It’s good to interview somebody who is in my same time zone. And for a change. So great. It was great to meet you.
Please go and check the show notes for Cepee’s links to her. She Hit Refresh community and the lounge and everything else in case you are thinking about moving somewhere in Europe. Thank you so much and talk to you next week.
Cepee: Thank you.
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It’s time for this week’s embarrassing travel story. We’ll call this one the wrong seat. This one is from Anonymous and here’s her story.
I was running late for my train, I was exhausted, and I barely made it running through the train station. Finally got on the train, found my assigned seat, and of course there was already a woman sitting in it. I didn’t speak the local language and she clearly didn’t speak English. So the whole conversation basically happened by pointing at tickets and seat numbers. I showed her my ticket and pointed to the seat. She looked at hers, looked at mine, and didn’t budge. I was starting to get a little bit upset, but I continued to point and smile. Then she pointed it on the part of my ticket that I hadn’t paid attention to. I was in the wrong carriage. Same seat number, one carriage over. So it turns out the problem was me, and I apologized as best I could, mostly through facial expressions and more pointing, grabbed my suitcase and walked away bright red, while everyone around us clearly understood what just happened.
Ooh. Ouch. It’s easy to get in the wrong carriage, especially in a hurry.
Thank you so much for sharing your story with us, Miss Anonymous, and if you have an embarrassing travel story of your own, we’d love to hear it. You can submit yours at www.solofemaletravelers.club.